Tapping Head setup

Don@Campbell-Gemstones... · Fri May 30, 2014 8:15 pm

I am trying to setup my mill to use a Stm JSN7 tapping head. It self feeds for 0.14" after the feed stops, then goes into neutral. I set up the tool using Axial Travel at 0.14" this is the Gcode generated. for a hole tapped to 0.500" deep

N0010 (Filename: Taig CNC Lead Screw Nut.tap)
N0020 (Post processor: Mach3.scpost)
N0030 (Date:30/05/2014 Time:12:17:02)
N0040 G20 (Units: Inches)
N0050 G40 G90 G91.1
N0060 F1
N0070 (Part: Taig CNC Lead Screw Nut)
N0080 (Operation: Tap, 10-32_THREADS, T12: Tapping head #10-28 tap, 0.5 in Deep)
N0090 S500 G00 Z3.0000
N0100 X0.0000 Y0.0000
N0110 (Tapping head #10-28 tap)
N0120 T12 M06
N0130 G43 H12
N0140 G00 Z0.1250
N0150 S1000 M03
N0160 M49
N0170 G95
N0180 X-0.4970 Y-0.7263
N0190 Z0.0394
N0200 G01 Z-0.500 F0.0357
N0210 Z-0.360 F393.7008
N0220 Z0.179 F0.0714
N0230 G00 Z0.1250
N0240 X-1.1220 Y-0.5388
N0250 Z0.0394
N0260 G01 Z-0.500 F0.0357
N0270 Z-0.360 F393.7008
N0280 Z0.179 F0.0714
N0290 G00 Z0.1250

Then on to the next hole.

On line 200, it gives the feed down to z -0.500, then on line 210 tries to jump back to z -0.360 at an extreme feed rate then on line 220retract at the 2x retract speed to Z 0.179. Where does the z0.179 come from?

It would seem that feeding to z-0.360 and then a pause of four index pluses then the 2x retract would be a better method. I worry that the quick jerk back from depth might stall my z axis stepper and if this were to happen, the tap would continue to self feed.to z -0.614"

This is my first attempt to CNC feed the tapping head.and I want to understand what is going on before commenting a tap to metal.

Don

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Brian L · Post by **Brian L** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:42 am

Les Newell les.newell@... · Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:50 am

Hi Brian,

I gave up on using the tapping portion of Sheetcam because I kept getting odd rapids on the way out and things just didnâ€™t make sense.

Could you describe your ideal sequence of moves for tapping. I don't have a tapping head here so I've never tested the moves myself.

Les

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Brian L · Post by **Brian L** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:36 pm

Hi Les,

Sure, but there are several styles of tapping, so I’ll describe what I do in each case. Now, I don’t have rigid tapping so that won’t be a method I know about.

First, this is how I do tapping with “Tension and Compression” style holders, this is where you have to reverse the spindle. The advantage to this style holder is I don’t have to have a torque arm on my mill, which is rather difficult to set up on a moving quill knee mill.

N2010 (1/4-28 tap)
N2020 T6 M06 G43 H6
N2030 M07
N2040 S1000 M03
N2050 G00 X.19 Y-2.75
N2060 Z-1 (my hole surface is down at Z-1.3)
N2070 G01 Z-1.8 F35.7 (feed is 1/28 time the rpm)
N2080 M04 (Reverse the spindle)
N2090 G04 F1 (Dwell for one second, my spindle takes that long to stop and reverse, this varies with rpm)
N2100 Z-1 (feed back out)
N2110 M03 (back to forwards speed)
N2120 G00 Y-.25 (on to next hole and repeat)
N2130 G01 Z-1.8
N2140 M04
N2150 G04 F1
N2160 Z-1
N2170 M03
N2180 G32 (retract to tool change position)

Now, if I use my Tapmatic it goes a little different, I have an NC-1 which reverses at the same speed as forwards. A lot of Tapmatics reverse at 1.5 or 1.75 times the forward speed so increased feedrate would need to be set up.

(1/4-28 tap)
T6 M06 G43 H6
M07
S1000 M03
G00 X.19 Y-2.75
Z-1
G01 Z-1.8 F35.7
G04 F.1 (short 1/10 second dwell to allow the pullout and release)
Z-1
G00 Y-.25
G01 Z-1.8
G04 F.1
Z-1
G32

I don’t go to the trouble to use the tapmatic unless I have like 5 or more holes per part, and I can load the head into the spindle, engage the torque arm and just leave it in the spindle and change the parts in the vise and just do the tapping cycle as a separate operation on my parts. If you have a toolchanger, then you are talking a VMC and they have brackets and such to act as torque arms and will work through a toolchange.

In both cases, I’m allowing for pull out, or over run myself, like I said before, so darn many variables, that’s it’s just easier to program way shallow and then adjust the code and be done with it.

I hope that helps…. let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 3:50 AM, Les Newell les.newell@fastmail.co.uk (les.newell@fastmail.co.uk) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:

Hi Brian,
I gave up on using the tapping portion of Sheetcam because I kept getting odd rapids on the way out and things just didn’t make sense.
Could you describe your ideal sequence of moves for tapping. I don't have a tapping head here so I've never tested the moves myself.Les

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Les Newell les.newell@... · Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:54 pm

Thanks Brian,

I think the main thing missing from SheetCam's Tapmatic tapping code is the dwell at the bottom.

Les

On 02/06/2014 14:36, Brian Lamb blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net) [sheetcam] wrote:

Hi Les,

Sure, but there are several styles of tapping, so I’ll describe what I do in each case. Now, I don’t have rigid tapping so that won’t be a method I know about.

First, this is how I do tapping with “Tension and Compression” style holders, this is where you have to reverse the spindle. The advantage to this style holder is I don’t have to have a torque arm on my mill, which is rather difficult to set up on a moving quill knee mill.

N2010 (1/4-28 tap)
N2020 T6 M06 G43 H6
N2030 M07
N2040 S1000 M03
N2050 G00 X.19 Y-2.75
N2060 Z-1 (my hole surface is down at Z-1.3)
N2070 G01 Z-1.8 F35.7 (feed is 1/28 time the rpm)
N2080 M04 (Reverse the spindle)
N2090 G04 F1 (Dwell for one second, my spindle takes that long to stop and reverse, this varies with rpm)
N2100 Z-1 (feed back out)
N2110 M03 (back to forwards speed)
N2120 G00 Y-.25 (on to next hole and repeat)
N2130 G01 Z-1.8
N2140 M04
N2150 G04 F1
N2160 Z-1
N2170 M03
N2180 G32 (retract to tool change position)

Now, if I use my Tapmatic it goes a little different, I have an NC-1 which reverses at the same speed as forwards. A lot of Tapmatics reverse at 1.5 or 1.75 times the forward speed so increased feedrate would need to be set up.

(1/4-28 tap)
T6 M06 G43 H6
M07
S1000 M03
G00 X.19 Y-2.75
Z-1
G01 Z-1.8 F35.7
G04 F.1 (short 1/10 second dwell to allow the pullout and release)
Z-1
G00 Y-.25
G01 Z-1.8
G04 F.1
Z-1
G32

I don’t go to the trouble to use the tapmatic unless I have like 5 or more holes per part, and I can load the head into the spindle, engage the torque arm and just leave it in the spindle and change the parts in the vise and just do the tapping cycle as a separate operation on my parts. If you have a toolchanger, then you are talking a VMC and they have brackets and such to act as torque arms and will work through a toolchange.

In both cases, I’m allowing for pull out, or over run myself, like I said before, so darn many variables, that’s it’s just easier to program way shallow and then adjust the code and be done with it.

I hope that helps…. let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 3:50 AM, Les Newell les.newell@fastmail.co.uk (les.newell@fastmail.co.uk) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:

Hi Brian,
I gave up on using the tapping portion of Sheetcam because I kept getting odd rapids on the way out and things just didn’t make sense.
Could you describe your ideal sequence of moves for tapping. I don't have a tapping head here so I've never tested the moves myself. Les

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Posted by: Les Newell <les.newell@fastmail.co.uk>

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Brian L · Post by **Brian L** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:15 pm

I don’t know that you have to have any dwell, most machines can’t move fast enough when reversing, so the tapping head will do it’s pull out and release any way. At least if you are spinning some decent rpm.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Les Newell les.newell@fastmail.co.uk (les.newell@fastmail.co.uk) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:

Thanks Brian,I think the main thing missing from SheetCam's Tapmatic tapping code is the dwell at the bottom.LesOn 02/06/2014 14:36, Brian Lamb blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net) [sheetcam] wrote:
Hi Les,
Sure, but there are several styles of tapping, so I’ll describe what I do in each case. Now, I don’t have rigid tapping so that won’t be a method I know about.

First, this is how I do tapping with “Tension and Compression” style holders, this is where you have to reverse the spindle. The advantage to this style holder is I don’t have to have a torque arm on my mill, which is rather difficult to set up on a moving quill knee mill.

N2010 (1/4-28 tap)
N2020 T6 M06 G43 H6
N2030 M07
N2040 S1000 M03
N2050 G00 X.19 Y-2.75
N2060 Z-1 (my hole surface is down at Z-1.3)
N2070 G01 Z-1.8 F35.7 (feed is 1/28 time the rpm)
N2080 M04 (Reverse the spindle)
N2090 G04 F1 (Dwell for one second, my spindle takes that long to stop and reverse, this varies with rpm)
N2100 Z-1 (feed back out)
N2110 M03 (back to forwards speed)
N2120 G00 Y-.25 (on to next hole and repeat)
N2130 G01 Z-1.8
N2140 M04
N2150 G04 F1
N2160 Z-1
N2170 M03
N2180 G32 (retract to tool change position)

Now, if I use my Tapmatic it goes a little different, I have an NC-1 which reverses at the same speed as forwards. A lot of Tapmatics reverse at 1.5 or 1.75 times the forward speed so increased feedrate would need to be set up.

(1/4-28 tap)
T6 M06 G43 H6
M07
S1000 M03
G00 X.19 Y-2.75
Z-1
G01 Z-1.8 F35.7
G04 F.1 (short 1/10 second dwell to allow the pullout and release)
Z-1
G00 Y-.25
G01 Z-1.8
G04 F.1
Z-1
G32

I don’t go to the trouble to use the tapmatic unless I have like 5 or more holes per part, and I can load the head into the spindle, engage the torque arm and just leave it in the spindle and change the parts in the vise and just do the tapping cycle as a separate operation on my parts. If you have a toolchanger, then you are talking a VMC and they have brackets and such to act as torque arms and will work through a toolchange.

In both cases, I’m allowing for pull out, or over run myself, like I said before, so darn many variables, that’s it’s just easier to program way shallow and then adjust the code and be done with it.

I hope that helps…. let me know if you have any other questions.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 3:50 AM, Les Newell les.newell@fastmail.co.uk (les.newell@fastmail.co.uk) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:
Hi Brian, Could you describe your ideal sequence of moves for tapping. I don't have a tapping head here so I've never tested the moves myself.Les

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Les Newell les.newell@... · Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:32 pm

SheetCam's tapping cycle is based on this document <http://tapmatic.com/images/pdf/install_instructions.pdf>. The second page cobvers programming. Axial travel in SheetCam is the equivalent to fast retract distance in that document.

Don, you said you were worried about the fast retract stalling your stepper. This shouldn't happen because Mach always limits the feed rate to the rapid speed. It will never move faster than the G0 speed.

Les

On 02/06/2014 17:15, Brian Lamb blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net) [sheetcam] wrote:

I don’t know that you have to have any dwell, most machines can’t move fast enough when reversing, so the tapping head will do it’s pull out and release any way. At least if you are spinning some decent rpm.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

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art · Post by **art** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:42 pm

Les,
To add to the confusion, remember sometime back (a year or two or so), I bought a Tapmatic clone and was having some problems setting it up with Sheetcam. In my case, it was because of the "deadband" of approximately 1/4" between forward and reverse. I don't remember exactly what I changed in the paramaters (and possibly in my custom post processor), but was able to get it setup and working in a very satisfactory manner. After an incident of a broken tap due to this difficulty and the minor changes I made, I successfully tapped 50 M3 (through) holes in .5" thick 6061 Aluminum.

As previously noted, not all these heads have the same exact parameters. The most obvious is the pullout ratio vs the drive in rate. Then there is the "deadband" region which from past experience runs from a minimum of 0 to in my case .375" on one head that I acquired at a boot sale. One must also make sure the Z axis goes high enough to be sure the tap is fully extracted from the material. This was my main problem due to the "deadband" initially as the tap was not fully extracted before it tried to do the XY move to the next hole.

Hope this may help in your efforts.

Art
Country Bubba

At 12:31 PM 6/2/2014, you wrote:

SheetCam's tapping cycle is based on this document <http://tapmatic.com/images/pdf/install_instructions.pdf>. The second page cobvers programming. Axial travel in SheetCam is the equivalent to fast retract distance in that document.

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Brian L · Post by **Brian L** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:14 pm

I have used G84, but SC doesn’t do canned cycles very well. I also seem to have some issues with my spindle reversing quickly enough. If I write my program out long hand calling for forwards and reverse, I get a much more reliable reverse. I suspect there are parameter settings in the control in regards to the dwell times used in the G84 cycle.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:42 AM, zrtorres@hotmail.com (zrtorres@hotmail.com) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:

Hi...
I have seen this has turned into a large Post....

I use Sheetcam for my Plasma Cutter, but I have Never used Sheetcam to Program a mill...., I also have a CNC Machining Center, and I use another software to generate the G Code for the mill....

This is the Code for a Tapping Cycle I use:

T4 M6
G0 G90 X1.0827 Y-4.0827 S255 M3
G43 Z1. H4 M8
G0 X1.0827 Y-4.0827
G84 G98 X1.0827 Y-4.0827 Z-1. Q0.0625 R0.1 F15.9
X5.2165 R0.1
Y-1.0315 R0.1
X1.0827 R0.1
G80

This cycle is for 4 Holes 3/8"-16, at 255 RPM, and a feed rate of 15.9 IPM. It just basically "synchorinizes" the RPM to the Feed Rate to match the pitch of the thread 3/8"-16.

There is no Dwell Time, and no other paramaters, just goes in, and then, it reverses spindle rotation, and goes out.

For this cycle to work, I MUST use a Floating Tap Holder. If I dared to use a Rigid (NOT Floating) Tapping, the Tap would certainly break, or cause quite some trouble. Maritool.com has some different Floating Tap Holders..., I realize these holder are big, but maybe this can guide you in the right direction....

I hope this helps....

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jeepsr4ever jeepsr4eve... · Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:39 am

G84 requires encoder feedback its a cimplicated canned cycle. I didnt read all the posts but a floating tap holder is the way to go.

-------- Original message --------
From: "Brian Lamb blamb11@cox.net [sheetcam]" <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/02/2014 6:14 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: sheetcam@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sheetcam] Tapping Head setup

I have used G84, but SC doesnâ€™t do canned cycles very well. I also seem to have some issues with my spindle reversing quickly enough. If I write my program out long hand calling for forwards and reverse, I get a much more reliable reverse. I suspect there are parameter settings in the control in regards to the dwell times used in the G84 cycle.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@cox.net (blamb11@cox.net)

On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:42 AM, zrtorres@hotmail.com (zrtorres@hotmail.com) [sheetcam] <sheetcam@yahoogroups.com (sheetcam@yahoogroups.com)> wrote:

Hi...

I have seen this has turned into a large Post....

I use Sheetcam for my Plasma Cutter, but I have Never used Sheetcam to Program a mill...., I also have a CNC Machining Center, and I use another software to generate the G Code for the mill....

This is the Code for a Tapping Cycle I use:

T4 M6
G0 G90 X1.0827 Y-4.0827 S255 M3
G43 Z1. H4 M8
G0 X1.0827 Y-4.0827
G84 G98 X1.0827 Y-4.0827 Z-1. Q0.0625 R0.1 F15.9
X5.2165 R0.1
Y-1.0315 R0.1
X1.0827 R0.1
G80

This cycle is for 4 Holes 3/8"-16, at 255 RPM, and a feed rate of 15.9 IPM. It just basically "synchorinizes" the RPM to the Feed Rate to match the pitch of the thread 3/8"-16.

There is no Dwell Time, and no other paramaters, just goes in, and then, it reverses spindle rotation, and goes out.

For this cycle to work, I MUST use a Floating Tap Holder. If I dared to use a Rigid (NOT Floating) Tapping, the Tap would certainly break, or cause quite some trouble. Maritool.com has some different Floating Tap Holders..., I realize these holder are big, but maybe this can guide you in the right direction....

I hope this helps....

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Vmax549 · Post by **Vmax549** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:26 pm

HIYA LES, With a tapmatic you NEED to use the fast retract as described in the manual. This is to ensure that the forward clutch disengages and the reverse clutch ENGAGES correctly . Otherwise clutch dogs do not engage correctly and it may CHATTER going up .

At the TOP of the stroke on retract I slow the Z feed to allow the pressure to come OFF the tap as it pulls OUT of the material . On small taps the pressure can tear the thread as it pulls free of the material.

SAME with ANY compression / Tension device.

Most of the time the normal Tapmatic process works just fine.

Just a thought, (;-) TP

Don@Campbell-Gemstones... · Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:30 am

Art, which tapping head do you have. The reason I ask is that I think it would be a good thing for this conversation to have a list of heads and what their specs are. Some of the heads have little available information that I can find on the web, my STM JSN7 is a good example of that I found the setup for 0.14 of self feed in one catalog, I couldn't find a Mfg/s site on the head.

I've been playing with a test bed setup that could give some hard numbers for compression on the down stroke, clutch release and reverse clutch points. There are probably a few more data points that would sort out how to setup your head. I'm absolutely sure there is no one answer as I can't find much in the way of common traits between my two heads other the a 2X reverse speed. Everything else is different.

Don

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art · Post by **art** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:13 am

Don,
I don't remember the exact name right now, but will go to the shop in
the morning and see what I can find out. I "think" I bought it from
Enco, but don't make me swear to that. The other one I got was at a
MSC tent sale and I will try to dig out the specks on that one also.

art
Country Bubba

At 08:30 PM 6/3/2014, you wrote:

Art, which tapping head do you have. The reason I ask is that I
think it would be a good thing for this conversation to have a list
of heads and what their specs are. Some of the heads have little
available information that I can find on the web, my STM JSN7 is a
good example of that I found the setup for 0.14 of self feed in one
catalog, I couldn't find a Mfg/s site on the head.

I've been playing with a test bed setup that could give some hard
numbers for compression on the down stroke, clutch release and
reverse clutch points. There are probably a few more data points
that would sort out how to setup your head. I'm absolutely sure
there is no one answer as I can't find much in the way of common
traits between my two heads other the a 2X reverse
speed. Everything else is different.

Don

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art · Post by **art** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:47 pm

Don,
A little slow today, but got to the shop and brought the tapping head back to the house so we can try to give pertinent information:
IIRC, I bought this from Enco, but can't find my shipping info. However it appears to be the same one listed as the "Enco" brand on the current web site.

It is Branded Taco
MFD in India
US parts source http://www.galaxysourcing.com/
Model HR-1
Capacity is 1/16" to 1/4" (and equiv. metric) and comes with two collets and associated wrenches and torque arm
A separate purchase was required to mate the 33JT to R8 to fit my mill
The reverse feed is 1.75 times the down feed
TOTAL stroke length is ~0.46"
Stroke length with the unit collapsed until forward direction hits neutral is approximately .29"
The "neutral" dead band then extends to approximately .34"
The remaining ~.12" is for the reverse feed.

These measurements are probably rough as I was trying to hold the head in one hand and used my thumb to find the different transition areas while measuring with a digital caliper in the other hand:})

When I got the unit, I googled and found a pdf file for their units and if you would like can upload it. Also from their pdf, (hopefully) below is listed their recommended tapping speeds.

HTH and if I have missed anything, let me know.

Art
Country Bubba

At 08:30 PM 6/3/2014, you wrote:

Art, which tapping head do you have. The reason I ask is that I think it would be a good thing for this conversation to have a list of heads and what their specs are. Some of the heads have little available information that I can find on the web, my STM JSN7 is a good example of that I found the setup for 0.14 of self feed in one catalog, I couldn't find a Mfg/s site on the head.

I've been playing with a test bed setup that could give some hard numbers for compression on the down stroke, clutch release and reverse clutch points. There are probably a few more data points that would sort out how to setup your head. I'm absolutely sure there is no one answer as I can't find much in the way of common traits between my two heads other the a 2X reverse speed. Everything else is different.

Don

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art · Post by **art** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:52 pm

Don,
That's the exact one! That video is what mine looked like when it did the M3 holes in 6061. Nice and smooth with no problems.
The problem I had setting it up to begin with in Sheetcam was due to the "dead zone" between forward and reverse.

At 03:32 PM 6/4/2014, you wrote:

Art, thanks for the info. While your head is a bit different than my STM head, it seems to handle the tapping the same. From your note, I found this link
Tapping Head

Tapping Head
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